Welcome to Beyond Succession, the podcast where your most pressing questions about future-proofing your business are answered. Whether you are a family business owner, stakeholder or keen entrepreneur, this podcast is a valuable tool that addresses topics around navigating the complexities of the family enterprise. Join Leah Tolton, a seasoned family enterprise and corporate lawyer who is passionate about helping family enterprise businesses, as she explores topics of governance, succession and growth.
In this episode, Leah is joined by Barbara Kimmitt KC, a partner in Bennett Jones' Tax group, as they discuss the intricacies of family business ownership transition planning and estate planning for entrepreneurs. They cover topics such as the differences between wills, enduring powers of attorney and advance directives, and how these documents play a crucial role in the smooth transition of family businesses. The episode also delves into the importance of having a comprehensive succession plan in place, including the use of trust structures and unanimous shareholder agreements.
Barbara Kimmitt KC: [00:00:00] The other thing that I've seen work quite nicely, um, is, you know, I may not, so I, so I appoint my sister as my powers of attorney because of this private share issue, but I may not really want them having to make sure that my bills are paid and my investments are properly overseen. I mean, my daughter needs a check made out to the school for school fees and my husband has to go to my sisters to do that.
It doesn't make any sense. So what we've done, uh, in the past for some families is have Two powers of attorney because you can have a power of attorney that's specific to certain powers.
Leah Tolton: [00:00:40] Welcome to Beyond Succession, a podcast series within the Bennett Jones Business Law Talks podcast that discusses topics around navigating the complexities of the family enterprise. I'm Leah Tolton, partner at Bennett Jones LLP, and I'm a family enterprise and corporate lawyer, passionate about helping family enterprise businesses.
Navigate the complexities of governance, succession, and growth.
Before we begin this podcast, please note that anything said or discussed on this podcast does not constitute legal advice. Always seek proper advice from your legal advisor, as every situation is different and outcomes can vary.
In the world of family enterprises, planning for the future isn't just about growth and profitability. It's about legacy, continuity. And the handing over of a torch that's often been held for generations. It's a process that demands careful consideration, strategic decision making, and above all, a deep understanding of the family and the business.
To help you navigate this complex landscape, joining us today is my colleague Barbara Kimmitt. Partner in the tax group here at Bennett Jones. Her estate planning practice covers the interests of individuals and various members of family enterprises when they are trying to transition their businesses.
She also considers and advises on trust structures that may be useful to family enterprises as they consider transition of ownership and management to a new generation. She also has experience in estate litigation, which gives her a unique perspective on what can happen when things go wrong. And she uses that perspective in advising individuals and family members in their estate plans.
Welcome to the podcast, Barbara.
Barbara Kimmitt KC: [00:02:38] Hi, Leah. Thanks for having me.
Leah Tolton: [00:02:40] Barbara, you know, you got a real range of experience and some really interesting stories to tell. I wonder though, if we could start at the very beginning in terms of what you do, and if we could just set the table with some really basic and foundational concepts.
that inform the kind of work that you do every day. So I wonder if you could explain for us the difference between a will, an enduring power of attorney, and advance directive.
Barbara Kimmitt KC: [00:03:08] Sure thing, no problem. I mean, those are really the nuts and bolts of any sort of an estate plan. And I think probably most people know what a will is.
I mean, we've all seen enough television about the reading of the will and that sort of thing. I mean, a will is, uh, as a document where you can, um, designate how your assets are going to be distributed if you die. I mean, there's other things that a will can do, like you can, uh, appoint a guardian for minor children.
You can designate beneficiaries for registered plans like RSPs and tax free savings accounts, or even life insurance. And in fact, it's really important to remember those types of assets when you're, when you're doing a will. You can also in a will deal with directions about funeral or cremation, but for the most part, the hallmark of a will is that it deals with assets when we die.
And sometimes there are. Restrictions on what you can put in a will. Um, for example, uh, there's legislation in Alberta that requires that you make proper provision for certain people in your life, like your spouse or your common law partner or your minor children. But other than that, um, Alberta is a jurisdiction that's known for championing, uh, testamentary freedom, meaning the ability to do almost anything with your will, subject to maybe some of the other concepts that we'll explore today.
So distinct from that are the Enduring Power of Attorney and what we call the Personal Directive in, in, uh, Alberta. They go by different names depending on the jurisdiction. And it's funny. I often refer to these two documents as cousins to each other. And then you take it one step further and they're sort of the forgotten cousins because so much emphasis goes on the will and I understand why that is but when you understand what a power of attorney and a personal directive Does, uh, you might actually want to put more of your time thinking about, uh, what they say.
So an enduring power of attorney, um, deals with financial decisions and a personal directive deals with care decisions. And something that people often get really mixed up about is the fact that the power of attorney and the personal directive are operative during our lifetimes, whereas a will is operative if we die.
The power of attorney dealing with financial decisions. That's where, you know, the person who you name as your attorney would have authority over things like making sure your bills get paid, or your tax returns are prepared and filed, um, or your investments are properly balanced. And also, the person who's your power of attorney could be the person who stands in your shoes as the shareholder of your family enterprise.
So, from that perspective, it's a really important document and something that, um, That people who have family enterprises should really be thinking about. On the other side is the personal directive. And that's a different document altogether. A power of attorney and a will both deal with financial skill sets.
But a personal directive deals with care skill set. And you know, not everyone has the ability to be making personal care decisions on behalf of another person. For some people it's just far too emotional of a task. They're not able to even put a foot in the hospital room to be helping mom or dad and and they probably shouldn't be named as health care agents, whereas they might have very great skills for managing finances.
So the personal directive, you can appoint someone who can make personal care decisions for you, and of course, that's a broad spectrum of decision making. Um, it would include maybe a younger person who is in an accident or becomes ill unexpectedly. They might be thinking more of an end of life type decision and then the agent is sitting there and having to gather information from care providers and decide what sort of care should or should not be provided.
That's kind of the scenario that most of us think about when we think about an advanced care, uh, directive. But actually, it's broader than that because there might not be a sudden event like what I just outlined. It could be. Which is more normal, not really, we're fortunate in Canada to be in the situation, most of us do, you know, live our normal life cycle and get older and face the different obstacles, health related obstacles that a person does as they get older, and so you're Agent, um, would be able to make those sorts of decisions if you lost the ability to make the decisions yourself.
So that would include deciding where you could live, who should be visiting you even, what sort of activities you should be engaging in, like driving and that sort of thing. So there are three very distinct documents, but all have a real level of importance.
Leah Tolton: [00:08:00] I'm interested in your comments about, uh, the kinds of things that people who are owners or who are involved in a family enterprise should consider in particular?
Barbara Kimmitt KC: [00:08:34] Sure. So, I guess it's, uh, worthwhile to point out that capacity is task specific in the eyes of the law. So, you might have capacity to do one thing, but not another. Uh, an example is that there's actually a very low capacity to marry, and there's all sorts of jokes that could be made around that, um, than there is to do a will.
And that's also true with respect to the difference between powers of attorney and personal directive. So, strictly speaking, you might have capacity to make personal care decisions for yourself, um, but you don't have capacity to manage finances. That's not very common. Typically, once you've lost capacity, both those realms of influence are impacted.
But I guess the reason I pointed out is because, to your question, incapacity does not, does And the, and the family enterprise does not really invoke the care directive. That's really doesn't much have much to do with how it will impact the, the family enterprise. So I might have, let's say I had a family enterprise and I had my two sisters were other shareholders and, um,
Maybe I have, you know, my husband as my health care agent and I lose capacity.
Well, that would have no impact on the family enterprise. But on the other hand, with the power of attorney, um, it would have an impact. So I mentioned earlier that one of the things that an attorney could do under power of attorney is deal with a person's private company shares. So if you had a family enterprise, and again, in my example, if I had my husband as my power of attorney, and I lose capacity over financial matters, then all of a sudden, he stands in my shoes as a shareholder with respect to that family enterprise and my sisters members.
I'm are all of a sudden in business with my husband. Now, he has to exercise his authority on my behalf, but really practically speaking, if they're having shareholders meetings and figuring out who to appoint as directors and that sort of thing, they would have to involve my husband who may not have any business acumen or maybe they don't get along with him, all those sorts of things.
Leah Tolton: [00:10:44] So then really that could lead to two conclusions. Number one, that people should give very careful consideration to who they want to appoint to be their attorney if they are someone who is active as an owner in a family enterprise to be sure that the person they name has got the kind of acumen that's needed in order to make the right decisions.
And the next thought I have is that there should probably be some linkage between the corporate agreements. That are prepared that govern how decisions are made among owners and who votes on those kinds of decisions and the enduring power of attorney that you would prepare.
Barbara Kimmitt KC: [00:11:29] You know, you're exactly right.
And I know Leah that you've prepared lots of these agreements and you've talked about the concept of a unanimous shareholders agreement and other episodes. Um, and that is what I know you're referring to and I agree with you. I mean, a USA. Is a very bespoke document. I mean, it's very specific to every family and one of the things that would be Worth discussing when you're putting together the shareholders agreement is okay.
What restrictions if any do we want to put on? Who can vote our shares if any of us lose capacity? And again, if you use the example of myself and my two sisters, maybe our shareholders agreement says that if I lose capacity, um, my two sisters become my attorneys with respect to my shares. Now, one of the things though that You have to extrapolate from that then is my sisters then are controlling all of the shares in the corporation, which means they get to decide who's the directors, the directors get to decide on whether dividends are declared.
And so unless the shareholders agreement also talks about some kind of a dividend regimen. It could be that let's say my family was relying on income, which is dividends on my shares, and now I'm incapacitated and my evil sisters are no longer actually declaring those dividends. You know, that's maybe something that would be considered.
So it's a good plan in terms of now my sisters aren't in business with my husband, but that's the thing about a family enterprise is we have things outside of the family as well that we might want to. Put our mind to, uh, so talk about what the, what the dividend policy is going to be in circumstances like that.
The other thing that I've seen work quite nicely, um, is, you know, I may not, so I, so I appoint my sister as my powers of attorney because of this private share issue. But I may not really want them having to make sure that my bills are paid and my investments are properly overseen. I mean, my daughter needs a check made out to the school for school fees and my husband has to go to my sisters to do that.
It doesn't make any sense. So what we've done in the past for some families is have two powers of attorney. Because you can have a power of attorney that's specific to certain powers. So I could have a specific power of attorney in favor of my sisters that just gives them authority over my family assets.
And I could have a more general power of attorney in favor of my husband. for all other assets.
Leah Tolton: [00:13:56] So therefore you could be very precise about who you selected to make decisions in respect of the family company and leave other decisions to another person that perhaps didn't require the same level of knowledge or business acumen we were talking about.
Barbara Kimmitt KC: [00:14:08] Exactly. And it's also nice because again, in my example, it kind of leaves my, um, my family in a level of privacy around what our financial dealings are that's separate from the business
Leah Tolton: [00:14:22] Does that make sense? Now, obviously there's a lot to consider in a situation where someone is either losing capacity or has lost capacity and they're still alive and there are judgment calls to be made along the way.
They're about who will make a decision at what point and what kind of decision they get to make. Let's shift now to talk about what happens when that person is no longer with us and we are now relying on the will. How are the shares of a family company handled in a situation where a will comes into effect?
Barbara Kimmitt KC: [00:14:56] Yes, it's a great question. I mean, the will speaks from death, and it would govern all of the person's assets, except the extent that something is maybe not, not included. But for the most part, the will would just govern with all of the assets and would be decisive. So if you had a will that said, like, again, in my example, if I had a very general will, and it said, I leave everything to my husband.
And I happen to own family company shares, then those shares would pass to my husband. It's an even worse position than I was talking about with the power of attorney, uh, because in that case, my husband was acting as a fiduciary on my behalf. But in this scenario, he actually owns the shares and can control, uh, who runs the company.
Leah Tolton: [00:15:42] Then that seems also to be something that we should be giving some thought to in a unanimous shareholder agreement as well to speak to what happens if an unexpected event occurs with one of those shareholders or actually death is, is expected. So if something happens at an unexpected time, that's a better way to put it.
Uh, and, uh, as a result of that, uh, different shareholders introduced into the mix, then. In that bespoke agreement you're referring to, we should be dealing with who will get to vote the shares or how we will deal with those shares in order that that person is not in business with the rest of the family members.
Barbara Kimmitt KC: [00:16:21] That's right. The, the shareholders agreement can specify, uh, what, uh, yeah, who, who can control those shares, but really. What's helpful is the shareholders agreement would specify what happens to those shares like, for example, it might specify that the company has redemption rights, meaning the right to buy the shares back from the estate, and that might actually be preferable to everybody gain if I use my family example, and maybe my husband doesn't have any knowledge of the business has no desire to have anything to do with it, but he could really use the funds.
That reflect my VAT, my share value. Well, if the shareholders agreement requires that the company buy those shares back, that means it's a way for him to achieve liquidity. He'll get money for my shares so he can carry on with, with paying his living expenses and for our Children, etc. And my sisters get to carry on.
Um, without having to be in business with him. So the shareholders agreement could give a redemption right to the company. Um, I know Leah, you know well about the issue that that creates, which is, well, the company needs to make sure that it has a way to buy those shares back. And the shareholders agreement should specify how those shares are going to be valued.
And also the period over which the company has to, to buy them back. So I won't get into those. But, you know, those are all things that the advisors all need to be talking about and the family needs to contemplate.
Leah Tolton: [00:17:52] I'll just connect some dots here with a conversation that I had with our partner, Jay Winters.
And he talked to us about a concept called an estate freeze, and he talked about how value can be separated and preserved for people who built up the business and could be reflected in the form of what he called preferred shares and he talked about those shares having a certain value and he talked about how Those shares could be redeemed over time I think what you're saying here is those shares would become part of an estate in a will on someone's death And the link between the plan to redeem them over time and the plan to dispose of them on death could be created by an agreement that says, if This person holds those shares when they die, they'll be redeemed at this price, at this rate, this often, this much money at a time, so that the company then can cover off its obligation to pay the amount for those shares, uh, without putting the company at risk.
Barbara Kimmitt KC: [00:18:53] That's right, the shareholders agreement could deal with that and the thing that's nice about that is then it doesn't much matter who the shares are gifted to in the will because the agreement specifies that those shares have to be sold back to the company. And it may not be to the company, it might be to other shareholders, for example.
I mean, those are, there's all sorts of options there that the, uh, the family could look at. Now, if you want to get into actually controlling how those shares are distributed, because Maybe the family doesn't want the shares to be redeemed, they just want to make sure that the shares go to, um, often we hear the concept of bloodline, although in this modern age, bloodline is becoming more and more nebulous or perhaps expansive, um, in terms of who is a bloodline relative, um, in any event, if you have that situation, then, um, You know, then you might want to also have an agreement that I think Jay mentioned as well, which is a wills change agreement, which is an agreement where everybody says they're going to do a will that says X, like my shares will go in this way.
That works, but it, uh, it does require that the professionals. Be on the same page. You wouldn't want to have a will that says something different than any sort of an agreement because the gift would actually be valid under wills law, but there would be an action under contract against the estate. So then you'd have family members suing each other, which would obviously not be good for anyone, including the family enterprise.
But you could have a wills agreement that says, and it could maybe just deal with the family assets, the family shares, could say, hey, these shares can only be gifted to, you know, my children, and then that would keep my husband out of the mix. There's other considerations that go into that, but conceptually you could have an agreement like that.
Leah Tolton: [00:21:02] When Jay was talking with me about the tools in the tax toolbox that are available to help families transition property, um, in particular private company shares, he referred to a family trust and I wonder if you could help us understand what happens to shares that are held by a family trust when someone dies?
Barbara Kimmitt KC: [00:21:27] So I guess the short answer there is those shares should not be impacted by the death of the family member because they have offloaded those shares when they did the freeze, they exchanged their common shares for fixed value shares and those fixed value shares generally carry with them really just the right to get money for the shares.
They don't necessarily control the company anymore, although that may be the case. Um, those Growth common shares are in the trust and the deceased shareholder doesn't control them. Those are controlled by the terms of the trust. It's like its own separate road map for what happens with those shares. And then the deceased shareholders separate road map for himself would be his or her will.
Leah Tolton: [00:22:12] Let me just break this down a little bit. So if the deceased person is a trustee, what happens?
Barbara Kimmitt KC: [00:22:18] Well, hopefully that trust, the trust deed, which, you know, you can have a trust, even if you don't write it down, but the trust deed is just a document, sort of like we write contracts down, um, so that we can all understand what we had in mind, what were our intentions.
It's the same thing with trusts. Um, if you have it written down, then it, there's certainty and certainty is a. An important concept in trust law, and hopefully when that trust was prepared, there would have been a discussion around what we call governance, which is, you know, who controls the trust. And and so hopefully there's provisions in the trust document.
That say what happens if a trustee dies or resigns and there might be a mechanism for that person to appoint a replacement trustee in his or her will or by a separate document, or there might automatically be a default to another person to fill in as trustee, and it should be relatively seamless from that perspective, because the trust roadmap should specify what happens if one trustee dies or becomes incapacitated.
Barbara Kimmitt KC: [00:23:35] That's right, unless the trust deed gives the person the power to appoint. So, you can be given the power to appoint, uh, beneficiaries. You can be given the power to appoint replacement trustees.
You can be given the power to appoint property. Typically, the power to appoint replacement trustees is a relatively common one in the trusts that I draft. The difficulty is that People forget you put the trust in place and they forget that they have this power to a point and then they they die or become incapacitated without exercising it.
And that's where, again, the lawyer who prepares the will really should. No, about any other agreements or powers that a person might have and would want to review any kind of a family trust, looking for a power of appointment, because maybe they'll include a declaration in the person's will saying, Hey, I have this power to a point in the such and such trust, and I appoint so and so.
And that would be a good way to sort of keep it on everyone's radar as something important to actually exercise.
Barbara Kimmitt KC: [00:24:59] That's correct, unless in some cases, like most trusts that we create in a, in an estate free scenario. are fully discretionary. Um, and that means that no beneficiary has any set right to an amount unless, you know, sometimes the trust says, but when this trust is wound up, you know, you'll get an equal share.
Sometimes it says that most of them don't, most of them say, okay, there's six beneficiaries. The trustees can decide, you know, how much or whether to distribute to anyone or more of these beneficiaries at any given time, fully discretionary. But you could have a trust with vested interests, so you could have a situation where beneficiaries know that they actually have a one third interest in the trust, and if it is a vested interest then that is an estate asset of that person when they, when they die.
Leah Tolton: [00:25:48] So the things to pay attention to when we are considering how to transition property owned by someone who owns a family enterprise are an enduring power of attorney. An advance directive, possibly a trust deed, if we've used that in the context of an estate freeze, a unanimous shareholder agreement, and maybe a wills agreement.
Barbara Kimmitt KC: [00:26:12] Correct. I might add to that as well, that one of the big concerns often with family enterprises is what happens if there's a divorce. Hmm. Good point. Yeah. And so really the best defense against that is for shareholders to have marriage like agreements with their spouses. Um, I mean, I know that a trust, having shares in a trust and a fully discretionary trust, it does afford some protection, uh, but it's not foolproof.
And in matrimonial circles, there are, um, Lots of matrimonial lawyers who will tell you that when they're figuring out division of property on the breakdown of a marriage, they will look to an interest in a discretionary trust and notionally divide an interest in favour of the departing spouse. And you know, from that perspective, an interesting thing to contemplate is that sometimes by creating a trust, you may actually create an interest for a person that they wouldn't otherwise have.
So, you know, we have another kind of trust that we often prepare is when mom and dad purchase a real estate in the United States and they are, they're worried about the taxation regime south of the border and they put it in a special kind of trust and the beneficiaries are mom and dad and all the kids and maybe even grandkids.
And then one of the kids is, doesn't even know there's a trust maybe, and is undergoing a divorce and lo and behold, you have to disclose that trust. deed to the child and the separate, and the spouse, the outgoing spouse. Um, so that really emphasizes the importance of also having matrimonial agreements in place.
Um, because that is what's more foolproof. The difficulty with those agreements is one, they are not very romantic to suggest. Um, but I think when you're talking about a family enterprise. There's a pretty good reason. There's a pretty good selling point. Like you could easily say to your daughter or son in law We have a business here and there are lots of people's lives and livelihoods that rely on this business And so as a policy for the family we have matrimonial agreements as a requirement And maybe those agreements only deal with the family assets.
Maybe they don't deal with everything else That's up to the individual child But that would be an important agreement And Leah, I guess what I would extend that comment with is this, something that I find quite interesting is the concept of a family constitution. And that relates to a broader discussion with family members who are building an enterprise like this.
And they start to, they write down a constitution that talks about, okay, what are we about? Um, and what kind of policies run our family and that would be one of them. There's lots of other things that could be considered, but yeah, no, I,
Leah Tolton: [00:29:10] I would absolutely agree with that, Barbara, that a lot of the planning could derive from a family constitution that sets out what is important to the family as a whole and what the family seeks to achieve and where the business fits into that, where other.
Assets that the family holds fit into that, and in the context of that conversation, you could deal with a number of the things we talked about in this conversation, such as dividend policies, you know, when does money come out, uh, how much is invested in the business, uh, you could talk about things like redemption policies, you know, when, when our share is redeemed, how much money comes out of the business at a time, uh, um, Are spouses able to become owners of the shares of the business or not?
Is there a requirement that agreements be entered in that respect? It can even extend to things like, um, uh, employment. Can people be employed in the business, etc.? That doesn't relate specifically to what we're talking about today, but I think, uh, you're And that families can actually apply some thought to this in advance and can really can develop things that will be be spoken perfect for their family and their own situation.
And from that can derive a lot of the work that you do that I do that Jay does.
Barbara Kimmitt KC: [00:30:25] Yeah, I agree. And the thing that's nice about that kind of approach is it takes the personal aspect out. So you're the new. So, um, you're told that you personally are supposed to sign a marriage agreement. That's a much different thing than you're told you're marrying into a family that has an existing constitution where all members of the family have to do this for the good of the enterprise.
That's a different, it's a different sell.
Leah Tolton: [00:30:55] And I could see how that would also benefit some of the things that you see go wrong in your estate planning world if some of those decisions are made in advance by the family as a whole, uh, so that hopefully people have a clear understanding of the expectations so that there are fewer challenges at the end.
Barbara Kimmitt KC: [00:31:13] Well, that's exactly right. Then the spouse or the in law is sort of brought into it, has an understanding of it from the get go. There's some cases where they're just not comfortable with it, I have to say, and I mean, those relationships often there's a decision to be made. But for the most part, I think conversation is an important one.
It's a really unsettling position to be in, to be the, the in law spouse, because you, You also indirectly rely on your livelihood through this enterprise, um, but you feel like you shouldn't be asking any questions, etc. It's good to have some, um, some guidance or some certainty around what the rules of engagement are.
And you know, Leah, maybe... I don't know if this is a tangent for you, but or a way to circle back to what we were talking about, but when we were talking about there's an estate freeze and somebody dies and the unanimous shareholders agreement says that the shares have to be bought back, or maybe the shareholder agreement says you can only distribute these these shares to bloodline.
Well, if you're the in law spouse in that situation, and you've signed a a marriage agreement saying, you know, you don't have any claim against these shares. Maybe that's fine. Maybe other provision has been made for you by your deceased spouse. But something to keep in mind is that in that circumstance, the tax would be payable by the deceased person's estate on the deemed sale or the actual sale of those shares to the next generation.
So not only would the spouse. who signed off on any property rights to the family enterprise. Not only would they not be getting any value for those shares, but they would also have the tax burden, um, which is the capital gain on those shares. So it's important that thought be put into that as well.
Leah Tolton: [00:33:03] That's a really good point. Any other examples you'd like to share of things that have gone wrong that you think would be helpful to share with this group.
Barbara Kimmitt KC: [00:33:13] I guess really the main thing is to point out that all of these documents Need to work together and there needs to be periodic review of them in a comprehensive way because it's not a one and done situation when just like when you're operating your family enterprise.
You have ongoing, everyday things that you have to look after, your succession planning is in the same boat. Now I'm not saying that every single day people have to get up and start thinking about what their will says. What their, what their trust says. Although I do tend to do that myself.
Barbara Kimmitt KC: [00:33:54] Exactly. Uh, but you know, maybe, uh, again, as part of that family constitution or whatever, they, they have an agreement that they're going to have an annual family meeting. It's, maybe it's different than a shareholder's meeting. It's an annual family meeting. They can decide who comes and to what portions that those people come.
And one of the things they look at is these documents. Maybe they involve, involve their advisors for an hour. They have their advisors look at all the documents in advance of the meeting, attend the meeting for an hour, um, and everybody just makes sure that everything works together.
Leah Tolton: [00:34:28] Yeah, I think that's a great suggestion because things change all the time, right?
People get older, kids mature, people get married, they have children, you know, people move, they retire. All of those kinds of things happen. And so, you know, the, the situation we're describing here is never static. It's always a process. And so it's definitely worthwhile to revisit it from time to time, just to make sure that whatever it says now reflects the situation now.
And if you need to change it, change it. It doesn't have to be permanent. Yeah, that's right. Barbara, it's been a pleasure speaking to you today. Thank you so much for sharing your time and your wisdom with our listeners. I so appreciate you joining the podcast today.
Barbara Kimmitt KC: [00:35:08] Oh, it's my pleasure. Thanks, Leah.
Leah Tolton: [00:35:11] Thanks for joining me on this episode of Beyond Succession, a series within the Bennet Jones Business Law Talks podcast.
Make sure to hit the follow button on whatever platform you are listening from so you get notified whenever we release new episodes. Also, don't hesitate to reach out if you have any questions. about challenges or issues that you are facing in your family enterprise. Take care. I'll catch you in our next episode.